John 1:18
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him
Col 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. .
It's my goal in this debate to show four things:
1) Jesus Christ existed before His human birth.
2) The Angel of the Lord spoken about in the Old Testament is Jesus Christ.
3) The Angel of the Lord is YHWH.
4) Jesus Christ Is YHWH.
The first two of these goals are easily shown in direct statements.
1) Jesus Christ existed before is human birth:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Not withstanding all the debate as to the nature of the Word/Logos, this verse obviously shows that Jesus Christ existed before His human birth.
2) The Angel of the Lord spoken about in the Old Testament is Jesus Christ
1 Corinthians 10 1-4 (NLT paraphrase)
I don't want you to forget, dear brothers and sisters, what happened to our ancestors in the wilderness long ago. God guided all of them by sending a cloud that moved along ahead of them, and he brought them all safely through the waters of the sea on dry ground. 2 As followers of Moses, they were all baptized in the cloud and the sea. 3 And all of them ate the same miraculous* food, 4 and all of them drank the same miraculous water. For they all drank from the miraculous rock that traveled with them, and that rock was Christ.
The verse above is referring to the cloud that went before the Hebrews as they left Egypt, Christ is identified as being in that cloud.
In the verse below, the Angel of the Lord is identified as being in the Cloud.
Exodus 14:19 (NLT)
Then the Angel of God, who had been leading the people of Israel, moved to a position behind them, and the pillar of cloud also moved around behind them.
There is also the connection in these verses below in the pictures of Jesus being a "rock/cornerstone", and "drinking" from Him:
Mar 12:10 (NKJV) (Speaking of Jesus)
Have you not even read this Scripture: The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
John 4:13-14 (RSV)
Jesus said to her, "Every one who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
The connections are beautiful, and I know my opponent will not disagree that Jesus is in fact The Angel of the Lord.
But, there are some interesting things that happen with the cloud that I'd like to look at next:
3) The Angel of the Lord is YHWH
Exodus 40:34-38
then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys: But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up. For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.
Whats really interesting here is that it's clearly Jesus/The Angel of the LORD in the cloud, yet the verse says clearly that it was the Glory of the YHWH in the cloud that filled the tabernacle.
Exodus 33:10
And all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent; and all the people rose and worshipped, every man at the entrance of his tent.
Exodus 33:11
And YHWH spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.
Once again we have the pillar of cloud, "the Glory of the Lord", speaking to Moses, only scripture says it was YHWH that spoke to Moses "face to face".
Now, a word about the Hebrew definite article.
The word the in Hebrew functions as a prefix to Hebrew words. That is, to make a Hebrew word (of either gender) definite, you add a Hey before the noun
from hebrew4christians.com
This is significant in identifying The/Hey Angel of YHWH from "an" angel of the Lord.
When there's a definite article in front of Angel of YHWH, it refers to a specific, one and only Angel of the Lord.
When we see an occurrence without the definite article, then of course, the identity of the angel is far less definite :)
The Angel of the Lord with the definite article appears 57 times in the bible, the Angel of God appears six times. Each of these is an occurrence of Jesus Himself. None of these show the Angel of the Lord as an inferior being to YHWH.
Of course, we wont be able to cover every verse in this debate, but several examples of this are found in
Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8. Any of which Id be happy to discuss upon request.
Second, a word about the word
Angel;
The Hebrew word here is malach, and this simply means, "one sent" or "messenger". So this is not necessarily referring to some winged angelic creature that were all used to seeing, although it certainly
can be referring to any cherubim or seraphim or some other order of angel. If you put this into Greek you get apostolo, which would translate into English as "to send", or the familiar
apostle
*note you may have to hit refresh after those links.
From malach YHWH, we get "a messenger of God"
Now then, Lets take a look at
Malachi Ch3:
"Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
I believe this portion to be a clear statement speaking of Elijah/John the Baptist in the midst of what is clearly a messianic passage.
I'm happy to expound upon that subject, but at this point I take it to be a generally accepted interfaith interpretation.
Support for this is found in
Isaiah 40:3, Matthew 3:1-3, Matthew 11:7-10, John 1:29, & Luke 3:3-6.
Including Hebrew rabbinic view (path = "prophets" - "Malachi" - "Rabbinic arguments" - "Messianism" (although, amusingly enough, this website wants you to pay for the details: D)
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming, "
Says the LORD of hosts
A note should be added that the first occurrence of Lord in this verse is not YWHW, its
"adoni", which is similar to
"elohim" in that it can refer to an earthy lord or simply as a title of distinction.
But, can Adoni be referring to YHWH?
Certainly! Examples of this can be found in
Gen 15:2, Judges 6:15, Exodus 4:10, Psalm 8, & Psalm 135:5
In any case, Adoni is completely appropriate for use in referring to Jesus Christ and/or YHWH. The second occurrence of Lord in this passage is YWHW. Point being, you cant simply write of a verse that says Adoni, or Elohim as not referring to YHWH, simply for the use of those words alone.
It should also be noted that messenger as in "Messenger of the Covenant" in this verse is malach/angel.
Hebrews 12:24 makes it clear that the Mediator of the new covenant is Jesus Christ:
Jesus the mediator of the new covenant
First Timothy 2:5 explains to us the unique nature of this mediator as well as again, calling Him by name:
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
2 "But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner's fire
And like launderers' soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the LORD
An offering in righteousness.
Who's coming? The Angel of the Covenant is coming!
Now then, the following portion brings in some very interesting descriptions of the Messenger of the Covenant:
Said of The Angel of the Lord:
who can stand when He appears?
Said of YHWH:
Psa 130:3
If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
1Sa 6:20
Who is able to stand before this holy LORD God?
Rev 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Said of The Angel of the Lord:
For He is like a refiner's fire
Said of YHWH
Deut 4:24 For the LORD thy God [is] a consuming fire
Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire. (quoting Deut 4:24)
Deut 4:33 Did [ever] people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
I suppose I could get ridiculous quoting how many times YHWH is likened to fire in the Bible but I also want to note the reference to refining
Said of The Angel of the Lord:
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the LORD
Now, I don't think I need to show much in the area of what Jesus came to do. He came to pay the penalty of mankinds sin, making the faithful blameless before the Lord. However, the there are some interesting scriptural parallels between Jesus and YHWH regarding this subject:
Said of Jesus:
Matt. 20:28
Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Heb. 2:14
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death -- that is, the devil."
Said of the Lord God
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Isa 43:25 I am, I am He that blots out your transgressions ...
But I digress; there are some clear things we can glean from Malachi 3:
The Angel of the Lord is:
A refining fire, sent to purify, that they may offer to the Lord
YHWH is:
A consuming fire, which blots out transgressions, awaiting offering.
But lets not stop there:
Mal 3:6 For I [am] YHWH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Its interesting that again fire/consummation is likened to YHWH, in the very same context that The Angel of the Covenant is referred to in the same manner.
I find Malachi Ch3 very compelling evidence as to the parallel nature of both YHWH and His Messenger.
Continuing on, the connection of the following Exodus verses, to Malachi 3 is rather uncanny:
Exodus 3:2
And the Angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.
Exodus 3:4
And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I.
Exodus 3:6
Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
Verse 2 clearly says the Angel of the Lord appeared in the midst of flame (just as both the YHWH and The Angel of the Lord had been referred to in Malachi). The Angel appears in the midst of the bush, and then YHWH called out from the midst of the bush.
After this, God proceeds to give Moses the orders to head back into Egypt where he's going proclaim the famous words "let my people go",
Then;
Exodus 3:13
And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exodus 3:15
And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.
Here, were given Gods name (or at least how He wishes to be identified)
What is Gods name?
I Am who/that I Am; I AM.
How does God feel about His name?
Exd 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
With that in mind, lets look at an interesting discourse in the NT, between Jesus Christ (JC) and some religious Jews (RJ).
John Ch8:
(RJ)
Then said the Jews unto him (Jesus), Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
(JC)
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
(RJ)
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by
Now, in all honesty, I see no reason to point out the obvious here. But alas, I will :P
In John we have Jesus Christ in a situation where the religious Jews were questioning EXACTLY who Jesus made Himself out to be.
Jesus then shows His unity and knowledge of, and with the Father. The Jews then ask:
"You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
When Jesus Replies:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)
Now then, there are all sorts of gymnastics a person can go through to deny the connection of this verse to the Exodus parallel, but the religious Jews left no doubt as to how they interpreted what Jesus said;
"Then they took up stones to throw at Him"
Clearly they took what Jesus was saying as blasphemy, we see a similar situation in
John 10:33 when the Jews picked up stones declaring, "because you, a mere man, have made yourself God."
In familiar
biblical contrasting fashion (
also see Luke 18:19) Jesus makes it clear using this style that Hes saying more than just gods (with a little g) in
John 10:34.
"It is written in your own law that God said to certain leaders of the people, `I say, you are gods!'* 35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people, who received God's message, were called `gods, ' 36 why do you call it blasphemy when the Holy One who was sent into the world by the Father says, `I am the Son of God'? 37 Don't believe me unless I carry out my Father's work. 38 But if I do his work, believe in what I have done, even if you don't believe me. Then you will realize that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father."
In Fact, Jesus in his answer is claiming to be God Himself in this verse, by contrasting what is not blasphemous, to what is.
Its at this point that Ill move on to my final point, beginning by examining the local context of
John 8:58
Jesus Christ is YHWH:
John 8:58
"Jesus said to them, Most assuredly I am saying to you, before Abraham came into existence I AM."
As the above translation indicates, Abraham was a created being and came into existence. Jesus applied the Greek word "genesthai" to Abraham, but not to Himself. The Greek word genesthai is derived from "ginomai" and primarily means,
"To begin to be, to come into existence as implying origin"
The Complete Word Study Dictionary, (Zodhiates, p. 368, World Publ., 1992).
So in making this statement, Jesus is clearly making a distinction between Abrahams created existence and his own existence.
Had Jesus used genesthai of Himself, then the debate is over and Jesus is created. However this is not what Jesus said. He said of himself "I AM" translated from the Greek "Ego Eimi", which in context, simply speaks of "existence"
Before Abraham came into existence, I exist.
Some may wish to translate into a past tense here, but none of the past tense participles in Greek are used in Jesus statement. This simply rules out the possibility of before Abraham existed
I have been or
I existed.
Now then, there is only One Being whom can claim an uncreated and continual existence; this is no other than YHWH Himself.
There are many grammatical details in these verses that I fully expect my opponent to bring out, but I'll allow him to do this before making any stronger of a case on this particular verse.
HOWEVER, if what I've stated is correct, then this next verse should ring loud and clear in all our minds:
Jhn 8:24 I (Jesus) said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM.
Now then, beyond the connection to Exodus, and the local context, theres also an undeniable connection to the many "I AM" statements made in the book of Isaiah.
(I offer my thanks to
Michael Flowers for compiling these scriptures and commentary in his blog
HERE, which I borrow from rather liberally from this point on).
It should be noted also that in the time of Jesus it was common to use the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT known as the Septuagint. With this in mind, we realize the direct connection to the Greek Ego Eimi as we read the following verses. All of these speak in the eternal nature and power of YHWH:
Isa 41:4 Who has wrought and done these things? ... I, God, the first, and also to the last things -I am (ego eimi).
Isa 43:10 You are my witnesses ... says the Lord God, ... that I am (ego eimi): before Me there was no other God, and after me there shall not be [any].
Isa 43:25 I am, I am (ego eimi ego eimi) He that blots out your transgressions ...
Isa 45:18 Thus says the Lord ... "I am (ego eimi), and there is none other."
Isa 46:4 Until [thy] old age, I am (ego eimi); and until ye grow elderly, I am (ego eimi): I bear you up; I have made and relieved [you]; I will take [you] up and save you.
Isa 48:12 I am (ego eimi) the first and I am (ego eimi) unto eternity
Isa 51:12 I am, I [am] (ego eimi, ego eimi) He that comforts you.
Isa 52:6 Therefore My people shall know My name in that day, that I am (ego eimi)He that speaks is present.
Now when we read these verses, it becomes all the more clear why the religious Jews took up stones to stone Jesus. JC was using the same verbal style as Isaiah and calling back (quite obviously) to these verses.
In doing so, He was asserting His own eternal existence, and clearly the religious Jews recognized this.
Theres another interesting connection between one of these Isaiah verses and the book of Revelation.
Said of YHWH
Isa 41:4 Who has wrought and done these things? ... I, God, the first, and also to the last things - I am (ego eimi).
Said of Jesus:
Rev 1:17-18 I am the first and the last, and the living one; I was dead, and behold, I am alive forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and Hades
A similar connection, and ego eimi phrase is found in
Revelation 1:13, 17-18 and 2:8:
...the Son of man ... laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, Fear not; I am the first and the last. I am He that lives, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore. Amen; and have the keys of Hades and of death.
Rev 2:8 ...These things says the first and the last, who was dead, and is alive.
Here there's a Person calling Himself "the first and the last was once dead, but now lives". Obviously the one speaking is Jesus. And yet it is remarkable that such an expression would be placed on His lips since it is obviously meant to echo the very words of Yahweh in the book of Isaiah:
Isa 41:4 Who has wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I Yahweh, the first, and with the last; I am He.
Isa 44:6 Thus says Yahweh the King of Israel--and his redeemer Yahweh of hosts; "I am the first, and I am the last and besides Me there is no God."
Isa 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob, and Israel, my called; I am He: I am the first, I also am the last
The epithets the First and the Last and the Alpha and the Omega are parallel constructions. They convey the thought of eternal existence both backward and forward through time.
What I find amazing in biblical study, are the perfect ways in which scripture weaves together, and I simply had to force myself to stop here. However, I think in this OP Ive made a solid case, without assumption, for all of the points I set out to prove.
I look forward to my opponents response.
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All sources have been hyper linked where appropriate, save for these two sources, which I used for scriptural direction:
Basic Theology By Charles Ryre
And personal notes taken from my bible college. (Not that I finished bible college. but that's another story... :P)
